Discussion:
What Amazon doesn't want you to know.
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Margaret Shiels
2005-11-13 19:08:08 UTC
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Gentle alt.writing.scams reader,

First, my apology for cross-posting to this NG. Be assured that this is
a one-off. It will never happen again.

My sole purpose is to draw your attention to what I believe are dubious
practices by Amazon.co.uk. I also believe that at stake here is freedom
of expression.

Amazon have rejected my reader review of a novel by John McGahern. In
the UK and Ireland it was published under the title, "That They May
Face The Rising Sun". In the USA and elsewhere it's entitled simply
"The Lake".

You may have read it. You may even have thoroughly enjoyed it.

That is not the issue. The issue is that Amazon refuse to publish my
review. First, they ignored it. When it failed to appear, they fed me
the excuse of their moderators being too busy to read it. Next they
insisted (three times) that it did not comply with their review
guidelines.

I copied their guidelines to my Amazon correspondent and asked her to
specify the guidelines with which my review did not comply. She replied
that she could not be specific.

When I threatened to expose Amazon on the net, they relented, and said
that my review broke two of their rules. (It did not.) But I amended
it, and you can read it below. You'll see that, although it's critical,
there are other reviews on Amazon.co.uk that are far more critical than
mine.

So what's going on? Have they done a deal with McGahern's publisher? It
would not surprise me; the book trade has became increasingly corrupt.
Why do you think that only a small number of books get reviewed in the
papers — and that they're the same books in each paper? Because they're
the best books at that moment? Think again.

Read the actual READER reviews on Amazon and see how they compare with
the newspaper reviews. You will read lines like: "I bought this book
because I believed all the hype. I was very disappointed."

We are being conned.

Anyhow, I dutifully submitted the amended review, with the assurance
that it would appear within 5 days. It did not.

The astute reader will understand that this could continue ad nauseam,
with Amazon trying to wear me down so much that I would give up and
forget it.

I won't. Free speech and free expression are at issue here. Amazon now
control something like 80% of book sales worldwide. They have killed
the small bookseller. Soon the medium-sized book store will follow, and
Amazon will have a monopoly.

At that point they can do anything they please. Try posting a very
critical book review then!

Sincerely, and my apologies again for the cross-posting!

Margaret Shiels

--------------------

[The review Amazon didn't want you to see:]

When MIGHT is right.

In his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, the apostle Paul wrote of
"those who are being lost, because they didn't receive the love of the
truth, that they might be saved. (2:10)"

What a shame that John McGahern didn't read his Scripture with a little
more diligence; had he done so, he might not have botched the grammar
in the very title of his book, and might instead have called it: "That
They MIGHT Face the Rising Sun". If the poor English had ended there
then all might have been well. As it is, when one gets past the title
page, it's all downhill.

The novel provides clear evidence that, once a writer's book is
denounced by the Catholic Church, all subsequent work will be praised
as literature. We need only think of the frightful Edna O'Brien....

And literature is what this book clearly is not, at least not when it's
read objectively, without the baggage of the encomia that have attached
themselves to McGahern over the years, like limpets on a whale's
buttocks.

It's terrible. I could not get beyond page 36. I tried; I genuinely
did. The lacklustre prose is indistinguishable from that of Alice
Taylor – in fact Taylor's outdoes McGahern's quite often. There is a
myth, no doubt put about by McGahern himself, that he overwrites
excessively, then prunes remorselessly. If that's the case, then the
out-takes of "TTMFTRS" must have been excruciatingly bad.

He has no style, plain and simple – indeed I'd have preferred "plain
and simple" rather than McGahern's weak and often cringe-making
attempts at style. The English language seems foreign to him. It's
English for Beginners, the vocabulary of the semi-educated. And one
would think, to read McGahern, that Peter Mark Roget had never drawn
breath. "Sure why use synonyms," he must reason, "when the one verb can
be made to serve every situation?" Everybody "walks" for example; no
sauntering, hastening, loping, striding or what have you. Clichés
proliferate, and inept ones at that: a bird drops "like a stone" (the
only time I ever saw a bird dropping like a stone was when my husband
let fall a frozen chicken in the supermarket).

All the characters speak with the same, dull, interchangeable voice.
Nor does the dialogue always ring true; at one point, for example, a
country person speaks the line, "None of us believes and we go", a
usage I've never encountered in rural Leitrim.

McGahern cannot write characters that engage me. Because all speak with
the same voice, it was difficult to choose between them, and as a
result, no one character held my attention.

His narrative is even worse than his dialogue: "His eyes glittered on
the pot as he waited, willing them to a boil." Classic Alice Taylor,
that. I flipped through the pages and chose passages at random. There
were no fine words or interesting turns of phrase that merited a
mention. In fact, all I found was mediocre writing, hardly better than
anything a schoolchild could write. And the syntax! Even that infamous
torturer of English syntax Anita Desai could do no worse than: "The
Shah rolled round the lake with the sheepdog in the front seat of the
car every Sunday and stayed until he was given his tea at six."

The dust jacket quotes the Observer; evidently it hailed McGahern as
"Ireland's greatest living novelist". Whoever wrote that should hang
his/her head in shame, and apologize at once to ... well, to everybody
really; such poor writing as this does Ireland no favours.

If I am wrong, and there truly is a great novel lurking between the
covers of this book, then why on earth bury it beneath such dreadful
prose? I honestly tried to allow this novel to grip me, but it failed
dismally. Should I have persevered simply because it was written by
"the finest Irish writer now working in prose"? The hell I should! Two
out of ten, and that's being generous.
JF
2005-11-13 22:30:48 UTC
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X-No-Archive: yes
Post by Margaret Shiels
Amazon have rejected my reader review of a novel by John McGahern.
Professional writers, or writers with a professional attitude to their
work, who get a rejection don't go spewing their hysterical, infantile
misplaced bile all over the Usenet about the rejection. They get on and
write something else. That you've seen fit to behave in such a childish
manner indicates that you don't have a professional approach therefore
the chances are that what you wrote is crap and Amazon were right to
spare their readers your amateurish ravings.
--
James Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk
"Return of the Eagles", the last book in James Follett's 'Eagles' trilogy
published by Severn House, London & New York, Dec 2004.
E. laBrett Ruus
2005-11-16 04:03:36 UTC
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Post by JF
X-No-Archive: yes
Post by Margaret Shiels
Amazon have rejected my reader review of a novel by John McGahern.
Professional writers, or writers with a professional attitude to their
work, who get a rejection don't go spewing their hysterical, infantile
misplaced bile all over the Usenet about the rejection. They get on and
write something else. That you've seen fit to behave in such a childish
manner indicates that you don't have a professional approach therefore
the chances are that what you wrote is crap and Amazon were right to
spare their readers your amateurish ravings.
John McGahern was a visiting lecturer when I studied Creative Writing at
the University of Victoria, and I was delighted to be able to take his
class for one semester. I was left with a very good impression of him as
a man, as a teacher, and as a writer. He deals with themes and topics in
his writing that are far above the head of the OP. If he's not
Margaret's cup of tea, I suggest she move on to something a little less
demanding, for example Enid Blyton.
Margaret Shiels
2005-11-19 14:27:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
John McGahern was a visiting lecturer when I studied Creative Writing at
the University of Victoria, and I was delighted to be able to take his
class for one semester. I was left with a very good impression of him as
a man, as a teacher, and as a writer. He deals with themes and topics in
his writing that are far above the head of the OP. If he's not
Margaret's cup of tea, I suggest she move on to something a little less
demanding, for example Enid Blyton.

I have nothing against John McGahern the man, but the writer. I'm glad
for you that you enjoyed his class.

My difficulty lies in his undeserved reputation as a writer. I'm sick
and tired of publishers and journalists puffing mediocre writers and
fooling me into buying their books. TTMFTRS was the last straw for me.
I saw the emperor in his nakedness. At least Enid Blyton knew her way
about the English language.

Here's another McGahern line: "His kind was now almost as extinct as
the corncrake."

There are no degrees of extinction. One is either extinct or one is
not. Moreover, the corncrake is not extinct in Ireland, but threatened.
So that's two errors in one short sentence, and this from the man whom
they call "Ireland's greatest living writer". He's not of course. John
Banville is. Banville would never make such elementary factual and
syntactical mistakes. McGahern's book is full of them. It's truly awful.

I could argue about his treatment of "themes and topics" but that would
take too long and would bore the pants off you. Far easier to alert you
to the shortcomings of the words themselves. They cannot be defended on
any grounds.

Margaret
E. laBrett Ruus
2005-11-22 05:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Margaret Shiels
I have nothing against John McGahern the man, but the writer. I'm glad
for you that you enjoyed his class.
My difficulty lies in his undeserved reputation as a writer. I'm sick
and tired of publishers and journalists puffing mediocre writers and
fooling me into buying their books. TTMFTRS was the last straw for me.
I saw the emperor in his nakedness. At least Enid Blyton knew her way
about the English language.
<snip>

Hello Margaret,

I'd be interested in knowing what, precisely, your publication credits
might be that would give you the authority to condemn an author whom I
(and many many others with far better credentials than mine) thought was
rather good, keeping in mind that his low-keyed and subtle style is not
for everyone. He's like that in real life too -- you wouldn't exactly
expect him to liven up your Superbowl party, but for those who can drag
themselves away from the bonbons and daytime TV for awhile and listen to
him, the effort really is worthwhile.

Your bitter and unrelenting assault on John McGahern's writing skills
suggests that you think you could write at least as well as he can, if
you were only given half a chance by those money grubbing, starfucker
publishers, and that you take his critical success (and your failure)
personally.

Frankly, I'll bet the reason Amazon rejected your review is because you
come across as a nutter, a deranged stalker with some kind of personal,
and most likely imagined, beef about the author. Did "John" fail to
sense your affection for him? Did he neglect to return your love? Did he
ignore your obvious signals that you and he were meant to be? That
review that Amazon rejected was your last hope of getting through to him
as one reasonable human being to another, wasn't it?

This kind of rejection was enough to get Rebecca Shaefer and John Lennon
killed, and Ronald Reagan grievously injured, so I'll bet Amazon is
keeping an eye on you now that they have you in their files. Will we be
seeing you in the headlines soon? Will I be able to say "I knew Margaret
before she was famous"?

Incidentally, how can someone possibly be "fooled" into buying books?
Especially more than once? Do they not have public libraries in your
part of the world?
Margaret Shiels
2005-11-25 16:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
Post by Margaret Shiels
I have nothing against John McGahern the man, but the writer. I'm glad
for you that you enjoyed his class.
My difficulty lies in his undeserved reputation as a writer. I'm sick
and tired of publishers and journalists puffing mediocre writers and
fooling me into buying their books. TTMFTRS was the last straw for me.
I saw the emperor in his nakedness. At least Enid Blyton knew her way
about the English language.
<snip>
Hello Margaret,
I'd be interested in knowing what, precisely, your publication credits
might be that would give you the authority to condemn an author whom I
(and many many others with far better credentials than mine) thought
was rather good, keeping in mind that his low-keyed and subtle style is
not for everyone.
My credentials? I teach English, am intelligent and well read. Are you
suggesting that a critic must be a writer in order to criticize? This
is a little like saying that Pauline Kael had to be as good a director
as Alfred Hitchcock in order to review "Psycho" ;-)

He's like that in real life too -- you wouldn't exactly expect him to
liven up your Superbowl party, but for those who can drag themselves
away from the bonbons and daytime TV for awhile and listen to him, the
effort really is worthwhile.

And your point is what exactly?
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
Your bitter and unrelenting assault on John McGahern's writing skills
suggests that you think you could write at least as well as he can, if
you were only given half a chance by those money grubbing, starfucker
publishers, and that you take his critical success (and your failure)
personally.
Perhaps that's what it suggests to YOU. See my above remarks re
criticism. I quoted McGahern's own words. If you find them adequate
then so be it.
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
Frankly, I'll bet the reason Amazon rejected your review is because you
come across as a nutter, a deranged stalker with some kind of personal,
and most likely imagined, beef about the author. Did "John" fail to
sense your affection for him? Did he neglect to return your love? Did
he ignore your obvious signals that you and he were meant to be? That
review that Amazon rejected was your last hope of getting through to
him as one reasonable human being to another, wasn't it?
This kind of rejection was enough to get Rebecca Shaefer and John
Lennon killed, and Ronald Reagan grievously injured, so I'll bet Amazon
is keeping an eye on you now that they have you in their files. Will we
be seeing you in the headlines soon? Will I be able to say "I knew
Margaret before she was famous"?
Whew! I do think you need to talk to someone about this. You're clearly
delusional and projecting your delusions onto me. Me, I was merely
expressing my annoyance at the state of publishing, and pointing out
that McGahern's reputation is undeserved.
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
Incidentally, how can someone possibly be "fooled" into buying books?
Especially more than once? Do they not have public libraries in your
part of the world?
Certainly, but you have to be quick if you wish to borrow NEW books. I
prefer to own books anyhow. As it happens, TTMFTRS came free with my
Saturday paper so at least I wasn't out of pocket there. That said, I
was fooled into buying books by William Trevor, Zadie Smith and others.
This is because professional book critics here invariably have a hidden
agenda, or fail to declare an interest. In other words, they're
dishonest. I thought it time to set the record straight.

Hope this helps.

Margaret
E. laBrett Ruus
2005-11-25 18:27:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Margaret Shiels
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
I'd be interested in knowing what, precisely, your publication credits
might be that would give you the authority to condemn an author whom I
(and many many others with far better credentials than mine) thought
was rather good, keeping in mind that his low-keyed and subtle style is
not for everyone.
My credentials? I teach English, am intelligent and well read. Are you
suggesting that a critic must be a writer in order to criticize? This
is a little like saying that Pauline Kael had to be as good a director
as Alfred Hitchcock in order to review "Psycho" ;-)
Ah. You're nobbut a self-important a pedantic schoolmarm, then, and as
has been suggested in other threads, a thin-skinned partisan of popery,
and your calling in this life and beyond is to defend the honor of the
church at every opportunity whether the church needs your help or not.
It appears that your biggest beef with John McGahern is that he called
it for what it is, a battle of whose imaginary friend is the bestest.
Pope Ratzinger must be thrilled to have you on his side.
Margaret Shiels
2005-11-26 01:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
Post by Margaret Shiels
Post by E. laBrett Ruus
I'd be interested in knowing what, precisely, your publication credits
might be that would give you the authority to condemn an author whom I
(and many many others with far better credentials than mine) thought
was rather good, keeping in mind that his low-keyed and subtle style is
not for everyone.
My credentials? I teach English, am intelligent and well read. Are you
suggesting that a critic must be a writer in order to criticize? This
is a little like saying that Pauline Kael had to be as good a director
as Alfred Hitchcock in order to review "Psycho" ;-)
Ah. You're nobbut a self-important a pedantic schoolmarm, then, and as
has been suggested in other threads, a thin-skinned partisan of popery,
and your calling in this life and beyond is to defend the honor of the
church at every opportunity whether the church needs your help or not.
It appears that your biggest beef with John McGahern is that he called
it for what it is, a battle of whose imaginary friend is the bestest.
Pope Ratzinger must be thrilled to have you on his side.
Keep taking the tablets, sweetie. In days to come you'll look back on
all this and see it for the harrowing delusion it was :-)
















No. It's a wind-up, right? OK, you got me. I'm laughing LOL
E. laBrett Ruus
2005-11-26 15:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Margaret Shiels
Keep taking the tablets, sweetie. In days to come you'll look back on
all this and see it for the harrowing delusion it was :-)
No. It's a wind-up, right? OK, you got me. I'm laughing LOL
OMFG LOL LMAO LMAO LOL ROFL.

Have you Googled yourself lately? That's quite an image you've created
for yourself. I saw one thing you wrote in
alt.sex.bondage.catholic.scapular.between.my.legs.and.communion.wafer.up
.my.ass.rub.rub.rub that would even make those babyfucking priests vomit
in the holy water font out of sheer disgust.

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